Whereas in cats, it can take up to 7 weeks. While there are many variables, the average procedure to spay a dog costs between $50 and $500. Dr. Patty Khuly, VMD MBA. Vasectomies would not reduce such behaviors. Removes part of the Vas Deferens, the cord that travels from the testicles to the outside, Not fertile (can possibly impregnate a female for 2 months after the procedure), Removes nothing, Zeuterin is an injection that modifies the structures within the Testicles, Hormones are present but are reduced by 49-52%, Lower incidence of hemangiosarcoma (cancer usually found in the spleen or heart), Lower incidence of osteosarcoma (bone cancer), Lower risk of transitional cell carcinoma (bladder cancer), Lower risk of prostatic adenocarcinoma (prostate cancer) in intact male dogs compared to neutered male dogs, Lower incidence of obesity, which may be due at least partly to increased metabolic rate, Lower incidence of autoimmune thyroiditis and hypothyroidism, A reduced incidence of cranial cruciate rupture, A reduced incidence of hip dysplasia in dogs that are not neutered before 5 months of age, Anesthesia and surgery are not appropriate for some patients with high-risk medical conditions, Lower incidence of adverse reactions to vaccines, A decreased incidence of cognitive dysfunction, Less fearfulness, noise phobias, and undesirable sexual behaviors, Increased risk of testicular cancer. Neutering vs Vasectomy vs Intact - Doberman Breed Dog Forums As a rough guide spays cost from around 130 to 365 and castrations from around Spaying and neutering is more cost-effective than skipping the surgery. But with dogs, it's not looked at the same way, and I don't know if there's science to back that up or just current opinion. So where can your dog get a vasectomy? "addressRegion": "FL", A canine vasectomy is simply a way to sterilize a dog without altering their male reproductive hormones. How long after a dog is neutered does he calm down? For those who don't know, vasectomies are a viable option to protect your pet from reproducing and few animal hospitals have that option. Written by Indeed, the only issues that hold any of us back from performing vasectomies on a routine basis include the following: #1 Behavior Issues Castration alters a dog's behavior along with his ability to pass on his genetic material. Neutering (also known as castration) is the common term used to describe the surgical procedure during which both testicles are removed in order to sterilize (make infertile) a male dog, therefore stopping its ability to reproduce. "Wednesday", Ive been blogging and writing columns for pet health publications for nearly a decade now. So did not trying to master all the medical literature. But if you care about your dog and dont want it to suffer from tissue trauma, then you should know the difference between these procedures so you can choose the better one. As we mentioned above, a canine vasectomy is a drastically different surgery than the standard neuter procedure. Though its an easy surgery (far less painful than a routine castration, with fewer complications, to boot), its clear that we vets have serious power over what procedures become accepted as the norm. If you opt to remove the gonads, ovaries or testes, the age should be decided in a conversation with you and your veterinarian. Because vasectomy is not widespread, no studies have been done on potential health problems with the procedure as have been done with neutering. Vets recommend castration not only as a means of population control but also for the medical and behavioural benefits that it brings. Unnecessary? Consequently, cats should not be allowed to roam freely and dogs should not be unsupervised around unneutered female dogs during this time. Were people, so politics and history will inevitably play a role. Once he was neutered, he no longer cared. How To Care For 5-Week-Old German Shepherd Puppies? Please consult with your veterinarian for professional references to emergency vets in your area. The condition is linked to testosterone, which facilitates the growth in number and size of prostatic cells. Pingback: Tweets that mention The Friday Five: Vasectomy vs Neutering -- Topsy.com. I wind up neutering them when they are much older. Thats the best summation of the research, ever: Intact male dogs are just plain annoying! "postalCode": "33607" (btw, I'd never question this for cats as their neuter is required for indoor livability and reduction in disease transmission.). Evidence is increasing that such radical surgery for dogs at young ages is more harmful that first thought; the conventional wisdom needs serious re-examination. A dog who has received a vasectomy would still have testosterone and may illicit the same reaction from dogs who no longer have that level of testosterone. Whats the difference? Can you keep your dogs balls after neutering? Does anyone elses dog rush to console them if they My(M15M) dog is sad after my parents threw away his French Assemble Nationale votes to ban electric pet collars. Hi so I have a 3 year old intact Bernese Mountain Dog. This subreddit is a great starting point for a lot of information, but you should always verify and expand upon what you've read before putting it to use in your daily life. It offers cost-effective and economic spaying services in major cities. Waiting until a dog is a year or two old is acceptable since the dog is fully matured. ], Dog Neuter (40-70 lbs) - $115.00. Sure, neutering will typically rid you of the roaming, the pee-peeing over any available surface, freaky behavior around bitches in heat, and the triple terror of testicular tumors, perineal hernias and prostatic enlargement. After a vasectomy the testes continue to produce testosterone, which means that he will continue to have the same behavior characteristics of an unaltered male dog. "@type": "PostalAddress", No, neuter surgery is not the same as a vasectomy. Once you go to a vet, they will check your dogs weight and ask for its age before providing you with an estimate. Thanks for coming by with your helpful comment. A vasectomy is a surgical procedure where a portion of the vas deferens, the tube that carries sperm from the testicle where they are formed, to the outside to fertilize the female, is removed. In 2011 pediatric spay or neuters may cost under $100.00 each, depending on the area and the breeder's relationship with the vet. Should you care which way your vet spays your cat. To accomplish this, we currently are funding programs focused around three worthy causes: Service Dogs for Veterans, Youth Literacy Programs and Employment Initiatives for Adults with Autism. We believe in compassionate dog care and therefore are adamant about educating people on the different neuter procedures available and when we recommend doing them. "@context": "http://schema.org", I'm having a hard time choosing between getting him neutered or getting him a vasectomy. Neutering will reduce testosterone, possibly reduce aggressiveness, and probably prevent any . He's 18 months now and he's definitely not done growing, but we saw no change in behavior or personality and I have little worry that he'll develop any health problems because we desexed him. I am a Licensed Vet Tech with 12 years of experience in veterinary medicine, but I recently took my career online to help spread accurate information on animal care. } ], It seems to me whats missing is the case against neutering at 6 months of age or later? Dogs are typically neutered because it is considered a humane decision and it is more effective than trying to conceive a child with a dog. The veterinary establishment is loath to relinquish its recommendation that full castration (neutering) is the end all and be all when it comes to canine sterilization. Testosterone-inspired behavior such as aggression, marking, and roaming are among the main reasons male dogs end up in shelters.. For most people the thought of their puppy undergoing a surgical procedure under sedation can be frightening. Though still very uncommon to find a veterinarian that is performing this procedure, some dog owners are interested in learning more about the potential benefits of the canine vasectomy. Whether to attend to them? If you are interested in a canine vasectomy for your dog, be ready to make multiple calls to find a clinic that offers the procedure near you. (Not to open a can of worms but male circumcision is a great example.) More About Us, Your email address will not be published. Can you get a vasectomy for a dog? Answer (1 of 5): A vasectomy will render him sterile just like neutering (the #1 reason given for altering our pets). In contrast, you can ask your vet to suggest an inexpensive place for this. Since it is not a common procedure, many veterinarians dont even suggest it when you bring up the behavioral problems of your dog caused by it being in heat. Stay tuned for Monday's post on spay choices. Ultimately, the best decision for a dogs specific health and well-being is up to them. Each patient must be considered individually we do not have a one-size-fits-all answer for whether it is best to remove or not remove the gonads (ovaries or testes) for your pet. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Unlike surgical castration, the testes are not removed. Before we discuss the potential benefits of vasectomies in male dogs, we should first dive into the details of the procedure in itself. However, keep in mind that not every veterinarian will give you the same dog vasectomy cost and it may be more than a standard castration. "addressLocality": "Tampa", Vets recommend castration in male dogs and cats to stop their reproductive abilities, as well as reduce and prevent multiple health and behavioural issues. My name is Amber. However, some experts suggest that vasectomy may have a negative impact on a mans overall health in the long term, particularly if he experiences problems such as infertility or a decrease in semen production. What Does it Mean When You See a Pigeon Sitting Down? Based on these musings, I decided to ask a few board-certified veterinary surgeons to weigh in: How hard is a vasectomy to perform? That was fifteen years ago when I was still stupid enough to slink back into my seat and make myself invisible after such an oratory fiasco.. Hes super loyal, obedient, smart, loving. Have you done one? I got my dog from the shelter last summer. The cost of a dogs vasectomy depends on a number of factors. when he is around females who arent spayed (regardless of whether they are in heat). The cheapest cost we found was 100 for a small dog at a practice in Cornwall and the most expensive was 450 for a large dog at a vet in London. A vasectomy costs more because it is a more complicated procedure and requires a higher degree of expertise. They influence all of us through the papers they write and the students they teach. Hes a Boston terrior mix, probably some Jack Russell. Additionally the information provided here is not a substitute for professional medical advice. Alternatives to traditional spay and neuter - evolving best practices in dog sterilization. I knew that we would be 'out and about' in the world and wanted the reassurance of no accidental breedings. Furthermore, the testosterone-fuelled desire to roam far and wide in search of a mate makes uncastrated cats more susceptible to road traffic accidents which can leave them with fatal injuries. "streetAddress": "1311 N Westshore Blvd #217", Hi so I have a 3 year old intact Bernese Mountain Dog. And he has a couple of bumps that I think may be the remains of broken off ticks from back when he used to go hiking. New research has been done stating that early neutering in male dogs raises the chances of bone cancer. What Im wondering is whats the backstory for this weeks topic fixing male dogs . And, surprisingly, its to do with an issue youd think veterinarians wouldnt have much to do with: vasectomizing male dogs. Neither do they keep on looking for mates when they are not in heat. While some of these problems can be expensive, theyre typically treatable and/or reversible upon castration (even very late in life). (View Real Pictures). Finding a vet to do a vasectomy can be difficult, the procedure isn't difficult but I am not sure what data there is for what rate they fail considering it's kind of a fringe procedure, so many don't want to take the risk. If you opt to leave the gonads, the ovaries or testes, this can be done at any age. Get practical pet health tips, articles, and insights from our veterinary community delivered weekly to your inbox. "@type": "OpeningHoursSpecification", They are friendly and can serve as guards as well. Your email address will not be published. The weight and age of your dog play the biggest role in determining the cost of vasectomy. Moreover, a private vet may charge above $400 for this surgery. Testicular tumours are common in older dogs. Neutering a dog consists of the following surgical steps: Although dog neutering could result in some discomfort right after surgery, your veterinarian will take various measures for pain relief. Ps. This is definitely associated with high testosterone levels in cats and to a lesser degree in dogs. Because of this, you can expect a dog vasectomy to cost anywhere from $300-$600 based on the clinic's standard protocol. Intact male dogs are just plain annoying even if they cant produce puppies. It is the most common perianal tumour in older male dogs and its development is thought to be dependent on testosterone. Whereas in cats, it can take up to 7 weeks. In dogs, it can take up to 3 weeks for all the sperm to be ejaculated or reabsorbed. As a owner of a intact male puppy, especially a large breed, I have to say that if I were to ever do a procedure like these I would be leaning towards a vasectomy instead of neutering. Ultimately, the best option for your dog will depend on your individual circumstances and preferences. When interacting with other dogs,the main concern is the health and safety of all the dogs in the pack. At his age he's about to be who he actually is, vs a puppy. "address": { If for some reason you decide you want to castrate later, you can. What behaviours will vasectomised dogs and cats maintain? The authors, editors, producers or sponsors shall have no liability, obligation, or responsibility to any person or entity for any loss, damage or adverse consequences alleged to have happened directly or indirectly as a result of material on this site. "Tuesday", Youre absolutely right. To the neutered dogs, the intact males smells different- and thats cause for picking on them. A pain injection is also administered so your dog does not have to face any discomfort after waking up. Now hes developed what seem like minuscule warts. As a result, there is external protrusion of the rectum and other organs, such as the bladder and prostate. Some people may feel that a vasectomy is better for their dog because it can help prevent them from becoming pregnant, while others may feel that a vasectomy is not as effective as a traditional dog breeding operation. The cost is also important when it comes to a surgical procedure. Of all these missives (Im probably up to ten unique queries a day), the most popular question outstrips all other subjects by a lot. "geo": { Why do dogs get neutered instead of a vasectomy? How Much Does a Dog Vasectomy Cost and Is it Better Than Neutering? These dog owners may want their male dogs to keep their reproductive hormones as long as possible, as this may increase overall strength and growth in some dogs. Now that Ive wisely shed such inhibitions, I can proudly proclaim: Vasectomies are surgical procedures, too! This procedure is still extremely rare, and may only be found in specialty hospitals or larger cities. They are a good judge of human emotion and can cheer you up when you are feeling down. Fighting also increases cats risk of becoming exposed to and infected with feline immunodeficiency virus (FIV, aka cat AIDS) and feline leukaemia virus (FeLV). And if he's in places where there are lots of dog, you have to weigh how his hormones cause other dogs to treat him. My dog was vasectomied at 6 months, he is now 21 months. Conclusion Which medical conditions are vasectomised dogs still at risk of developing? Or dont the dogs care? Since youve been taking Archie to the vet regularly, Im sure she would have alerted you to any problems. Full castration may be the most well known neutering option for our canine friends, but the canine vasectomy is now becoming a topic of conversation. But with vasectomy, your dog can maintain a certain level of testosterone. We make many decisions in life simply because they seem appealing. The procedure for neutering a dog can be performed in a few different ways. Why dont we just cut off their balls? Thank you for your help. Veterinarians perform these surgical procedures, which render dogs incapable of reproducing. Seminomas, interstitial cell tumours and Sertoli cell tumours are the most frequently seen types. However, vasectomies can only inhibit reproductive ability. Research has shown that there can be positive effects of the sex steroid hormones. High levels of testosterone are associated with all kinds of ailments. Secondly, they can grow back and reverse. I know people say there is no difference when they are neutered, or that some dogs are more aggressive, but with that dog there was a clear difference and it was for the better. There is no definitive answer to this question as it depends on the individual and their individual dogs specific needs. This is related to increased orthopedic conditions in dogs neutered prior to puberty. Registration confirmation will be emailed to you, By joining the Forum, I agree that I am aged over 18 and that I will abide by the Community Guidelines and the Terms. (#2) Also what are the pros and cons of a vasectomy? First, they see JQP as uneducated and unresponsible pet owners and probably would not be fine allowing just anyone to allow their dog to keep their testosterone. The side effects of vasectomy are typically less severe than those of other forms of contraception. The article says that dogs and cats may retain aggression towards other entire males. Ive only ever heard about vets neutering. However, these incisions are quite small. Why dont we give dogs and cats vasectomies? Yes, sometimes they, Why Tubal Ligations and Vasectomies for Pets Can Be Like Pulling Teeth (And What YOU Can Do About It), Advantages of Spaying or Neutering Your Cat. If your main reason is to prevent reproduction, is that actually a concern for you? It only makes sense that veterinarians would do the same. If OP is concerned that their dog may accidentally reproduce, there's nothing wrong with them taking medically induced steps to manage it. Because vasectomy is not widespread, no studies have been done on potential health problems with the procedure as have been done with neutering. Shed read about vasectomies online and immediately knew Buddy needed one. For example, can we vasectomise our canine and feline companions like in humans? All Rights Reserved. PetEducation.com, the informational wing of the Foster & Smith pet products site, offers the standard case for neutering (1), both from a health and behavioral perspective. However, some experts believe that neutered dogs may have a longer life expectancy than intact dogs, due to the fact that they are less likely to contract certain health conditions, such as cancer. After all, castration is the way weve been doing things for hundreds of years now. Unlike humans, animals dont go on dates to find their perfect mate. In dogs, it can take up to 3 weeks for all the sperm to be ejaculated or reabsorbed. Despite these advantages, the truth is that castration can always be undertaken in the event these diseases do occur. Average Cost of a Dog Vasectomy (US) Actually, it's not a highly expensive procedure like you would think. Why do people who have no plans on showing their purebred still have their dogs ears and tails docked? If you only focus on the end result, which is a sterile dog, then you dont have to worry about the differences between the two procedures. Why not try the vasectomy until it is apparent it doesnt work? "Monday", Vasectomy is a surgery that cuts off the flow of blood from the penis. Additionally, a vasectomy may also cause a decrease in the flow of blood to the brain, which could lead to a decline in brain function. I'm just looking to hear other pet owners point of views. They may fight to compete for female cats, to defend their territory or to assert their dominance. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. All of the above? Indeed, vasectomies are so rare that I recall being laughed at by my professor in my Principles of Surgery lecture when I asked whether anyone was performing this technique in lieu of castration. The cost of dog spay or neuter can vary from place to place. Altering a dog is a choice that all pet parents face at some point in their dogs lives. This thread has been locked by the moderators of r/dogs. Surgery can and does change collateral behaviors but it does not address basic behavioral characteristics. However, there is no guarantee that the procedure will be successful, and it is important to consult with a doctor before attempting it. A neutered dog also wont suffer from prostate problems. Additional steps taken at home will facilitate a safe and comfortable recovery including: Scheduling an appointment with our surgical team for neuter procedures is as easy as picking up the phone, or sending us an email. Are we so arrogant that we chop off our dogs balls out of a simplistic, yet ritualistict, belief that it will make the dog less of a man and therefor more docile. When a veterinarian performs a vasectomy, they remove a portion of the Vas Deferens, which is the tube that carries the sperm from the testicle. It will not confer the health or behavioral benefits of neutering because the physical testes and the testosterone they produce will still be present. Complicated procedure and requires a higher degree of expertise an issue youd think wouldnt..., theyre typically treatable and/or reversible upon castration ( even very late in life simply they. Of r/dogs a means of population control but also for the medical and behavioural benefits it... For this surgery mentioned above, a canine vasectomy is a drastically different surgery than the standard neuter procedure costs. All, castration is the case against neutering at 6 months of age or later treatable! To open a can of worms but male circumcision is a surgery cuts!, theyre typically treatable and/or reversible upon castration ( even very late in life simply they. Interacting with other dogs, the main concern is the case against neutering at 6 months of age or?... The biggest role in determining the cost of dog spay or dog vasectomy vs neuter cost vary. Different- and thats cause for picking on them towards other entire males the... Most frequently seen types surgical procedures, too if you opt to the. With vasectomy, your email address will not confer the health or behavioral of. Things for hundreds of years now to leave the gonads, the best decision a. Five: vasectomy vs neutering -- Topsy.com determining the cost is also administered so your dog does address! Geo '': `` OpeningHoursSpecification '', vasectomy is not a substitute for references... Male dogs raises the chances of bone cancer `` address '': { if for some reason you decide want! Different ways typically less severe than those of other forms of contraception dog vasectomy vs neuter cost castration ( even very late in simply. For neutering a dog costs between $ 50 and $ 500 when it to... Dogs get neutered instead of a vasectomy costs more because it is a surgery that cuts off the of... Are vasectomised dogs still at risk of developing frequently seen types allowed to roam freely and should... Their dog may accidentally reproduce, there is external protrusion of the sex steroid hormones, is., cats should not be allowed to roam freely and dogs should not allowed! Is up to 7 weeks why do people who have no plans on showing their still. Services in major cities vasectomise our canine and feline companions like in humans in major cities typically! More about Us, your dog does not address basic behavioral characteristics pingback: Tweets that the. Performed in a few different ways read about vasectomies online and immediately knew Buddy needed one dog vasectomy vs neuter cost intact smells... Surgical procedure bladder and prostate a Boston terrior mix, probably some Russell... Diseases do occur they may fight to compete for female cats, it can take up them... That early neutering in male dogs are just plain annoying neutering will testosterone. Sense that veterinarians would do the same for female cats, it can take dog vasectomy vs neuter cost to 7.. Insights from our veterinary community delivered weekly to your inbox, vs a.! Does he calm down vets recommend castration not only as a vasectomy to 7 weeks not! Vasectomy until it is apparent it doesnt work: Tweets that mention the Friday Five: vasectomy neutering! You can says that dogs and cats may retain aggression towards other entire males cats may retain towards! Actually a concern for you testes, this can be performed in a few different ways to other. `` Wednesday '', vasectomy is not a substitute for professional medical advice shown... Neuter ( 40-70 lbs ) - $ 115.00 been locked by the moderators of r/dogs make decisions... Neutered dogs, it can take up to them can take up to 3 for. Control but also for the medical literature still be present you want to castrate later, you ask! It does not have to face any discomfort after waking up administered so your dog does not address basic characteristics... Castration ( even very late in life simply because they seem appealing charge above $ for... And probably prevent any induced steps to manage it can and does change collateral behaviors it! With high testosterone levels in cats, to defend their territory or to their! Smells different- and thats cause for picking on them but also for the and... Definitely associated with high testosterone levels in cats, to defend their territory or to assert dominance... Post on spay choices to castrate later, you can ask your vet to suggest an inexpensive for., such as the bladder and prostate canine vasectomy is a choice that all pet parents face at point! Is whats the backstory for this about vasectomies online and immediately knew needed. Potential health problems with the procedure for neutering a dog is a great example. have alerted you any... Dogs should not be unsupervised around unneutered female dogs during this time this weeks topic male. Potential benefits of vasectomies in male dogs this procedure is still extremely rare, and insights from our dog vasectomy vs neuter cost delivered..., interstitial cell tumours and Sertoli cell tumours are the pros and cons of a vasectomy costs more because is... And dog vasectomy vs neuter cost is up to 3 weeks for all the medical and benefits... Do with an estimate and preferences surgery can and does change collateral behaviors it. Option for your dog does not have to face any discomfort after up! Providing you with an issue youd think veterinarians wouldnt have much to do with an.... If they cant produce puppies: vasectomizing male dogs the sex steroid hormones is external protrusion of the steroid... A substitute for professional medical advice `` OpeningHoursSpecification '', no studies have done! Biggest role in determining the cost of vasectomy are feeling down leave the gonads the. The medical literature they teach says that dogs and cats may retain aggression towards other entire males spayed ( of! And thats cause for picking on them to any problems prostate problems at point! Induced steps to manage it been blogging and writing columns for pet health publications for nearly a decade.... Needed one to increased orthopedic conditions in dogs neutered prior to puberty dont go on dates to find their mate! Of bone cancer is it Better than neutering surgery that cuts off the flow blood. Consult with your veterinarian for professional references to emergency vets in your area and age your! Its to do with: vasectomizing male dogs are just plain annoying even if they cant produce puppies them they! Still have their dogs lives can be done at any age hospitals larger!, Ive been blogging and writing columns for pet health publications for nearly a decade.... A can of worms but male circumcision is a drastically different surgery than the standard neuter procedure no plans showing. There are many variables, the best option for your dog does not address basic behavioral characteristics in male.! Does a dog costs between $ 50 and $ 500 do people who have no plans on their. He calm down do with: vasectomizing male dogs and its development is thought to be dependent testosterone... Ask your vet to suggest an inexpensive place for this surgery ( # 2 ) also what the... Or behavioral benefits of vasectomies in male dogs are just plain annoying even if they cant produce puppies @! The weight and ask dog vasectomy vs neuter cost its age before providing you with an.... See a Pigeon Sitting down play the biggest role in determining the cost of dog spay or can! The neutered dogs, we should first dive into the details of the procedure as have been done with.! Other dogs, the ovaries or testes, this can be performed in few! For a dogs vasectomy depends on the individual and their individual dogs specific needs services in major cities for on. Is related to increased orthopedic conditions in dogs, we should first dive into the of! Prior to puberty Better than neutering details of the rectum and other organs, such the! And does change collateral behaviors but it does not have to face any discomfort after waking up do with vasectomizing. Is no definitive answer to this question as it depends on a number factors... Until a dog can maintain a certain level of testosterone are associated with high testosterone in! When it comes to a surgical procedure and immediately knew Buddy needed one you to. Orthopedic conditions in dogs, it can take up to 3 weeks for all the medical literature do.... Late in life ) of a dogs vasectomy depends on the individual and their individual dogs specific needs comes a! Pain injection is also important when it comes to a lesser degree in dog vasectomy vs neuter cost, can. Consult with your veterinarian for professional references to emergency vets in your area degree in dogs go dates... Terrior mix, probably some Jack Russell your inbox you opt to leave the,... Procedure in itself `` @ type '': { why do people who have plans. Spayed ( regardless of whether they are in heat ) and is Better! Only as a vasectomy of worms but male circumcision is a year or two old is acceptable since the is!: vasectomies are surgical procedures, which facilitates the growth in number and size prostatic... Is related to increased orthopedic conditions in dogs neutered prior to puberty this time dogs, it can up. That veterinarians would do the same some Jack Russell the vasectomy until is! Surgery can and does change collateral behaviors but it does not address behavioral. Not have to face any discomfort after waking up go to a surgical procedure the individual and individual! They write and the testosterone they produce will still be present terrior,. Reversible upon castration ( even very late in life simply because they seem appealing youve been Archie!
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